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 Post subject: Re: Preserving Czech Bloodlines
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:11 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:00 pm
Posts: 1209
Thge plain and simple reason people bring in WGWL, belgian, etc is b/c they feel Czech lines don't have enough prey for sport, too defensive and are not family animals. That is the readily stereotype.

Again though when you speak to people about WGWL you hear that they have everything needed. Sure you can outcross to czech for a little more hardness butt here are some great WGWL that have the hardness, you just have to ask.

2 different portraits.


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 Post subject: Re: Preserving Czech Bloodlines
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:14 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:00 pm
Posts: 1209
gusmanda wrote:
I'm curious. For example, would you consider using this dog below?

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs_details. ... new_lan_en

I'm repetitive about using him as an example because it's the one dog I know in person that I find impressive. Why or why not?


WGWL

oops realized you wasn't asking what type but rather if you would use.
My bad


Last edited by Ace952 on Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Preserving Czech Bloodlines
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:13 am
Posts: 8401
Location: AZ USA
NO. Not with this info. Much is missing on the pedigree.
What are the hips of his mother and her littermates. That is just to start with.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

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"All knowledge, the totality of all questions and all answers is contained in the dog." - Franz Kafka


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 Post subject: Re: Preserving Czech Bloodlines
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:01 pm 
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Posts: 1209
herby wrote:
if for breeding it is simple , if dog I want to linebreed on , must be great dog , so there must be enough great offspring around , otherwise why linebreed on him/her

Im for example linebreeding on cordon ansat , so breeding can include dogs coming over tom zps , ori z danaru , odeta z danaru , furo kamos , fany kamos , marco ,or matt z danaru , dante traho , and so on , but also offspring of brother from cordon , cent ansat in austria can be of interest


Herby I do see your point about using different littermates. As with every dog in the litter, some will be different from others. For example, you could have a dog from the 4th bloodline BUT he actually exhibits more characteristics of the 3rd bloodline so they will change who you use to breed him/her with. A litter mate may be total opposite and displays 4th bloodline characteristics and can mean you breed in another direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Preserving Czech Bloodlines
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:09 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:25 pm
Posts: 304
wow , many pins to nock down
first of all one must see that many opinions are fed by selpreservement and money
you cannot expect someone selling westdogs to say bad things about westdogs or good about czech
the downsides mentioned about czechdogs about sport are bullshit as the many dogs I have and know , are very workable for sport , high willingness to work etc

the only thing I would agree on .(that is not mentioned.)is that ,due to different level of prey/defence , the grips of czechdogs are not the best for points as opposed to west preydogs
so for sport Ive seen some very nice dogs that are crosses of west X czech , best of both worlds so to speak , but for me they are endproducts , not breedingmaterial , as , what they display is hardly what they are going to produce as the are F1 generation of total outcross


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 Post subject: Re: Preserving Czech Bloodlines
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:15 am 
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Posts: 304
hans and dante , you state this

'By breeding the same old Czech dogs we will inevitably bottleneck the gene pool.'

this is what I mean when I say taking a step back and look at the bigger picture of genetics in breeding , you are so wrong

I will ask one simple question for you both
what will be a bigger problem to the breed as a whole

one; my dogs are linebred 25 times on cordon ansat , but worldwide are many different separate lines available

two: all dogs in the world are outcrossed , but all child/grandchild of same dog


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 Post subject: Re: Preserving Czech Bloodlines
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:26 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:25 pm
Posts: 304
next one
it is a fact that many breeders of westlinedogs are looking to find some breedingmaterial that will produce some extra agression/sharpness , but they wont openly admid it on a forum

if you take a close look to dogs from history that were known from bringing some extra ""reality""in breeding , you will see they all have EAST influence
but more important is to look at why this newfound levels of ""reality"" couldnot be kept over the next generations of breeding after bringing in the EASTlines

simple answer is that these newfound qualities were never geneticly locked in as it was breeding as usual , outcross on outcross , so after F1 generation there was no plan for F2 F3 and so on , breeding back to west again , and again , and the influence is gone

to give you some of these dogs
asko lutter
orry haus antwerpa(verwin)
manto kaklenbach
ahron granit rose
boban heukske
dingo conneforde
lewis malatesta
ghandi fuchsgraben


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 Post subject: Re: Preserving Czech Bloodlines
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:32 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:25 pm
Posts: 304
good breeding in my book , uses inbreeding (to select and lock in) , combined with outcrossing(to bring in wanted qualities)
good examples are the breedings with orry , to produce lord lipin and erri

grimm to strange blood , than back to grimm offspring


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 Post subject: Re: Preserving Czech Bloodlines
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:37 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:25 pm
Posts: 304
joanro , wildlife uses same pattern of inbreeding ,where every so many generations an animal from other(inbred )family wanders of and takes over pack or group , to bring new blood/qualities
the generations bred thereafter however are inbreeding again

that human interfearance limits the possabilities for this to happen , doesnot take away that this system worked for millions of years , where humans have problems to preserve same quality in dogs for 2 or three generations


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 Post subject: Re: Preserving Czech Bloodlines
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:48 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:25 pm
Posts: 304
here is a story if interest to read about kangaroo island , showing that inbreeding and natural selection works even without introduction of new blood

Koalas on Kangaroo Island: from introduction to pest status in less than a century

Pip Masters, Toni Duka, Steve Berris and Graeme Moss

Abstract

In less than a century the ecological profile of koalas on Kangaroo Island has shifted from that of a species introduced for conservation purposes to one of pest status. Between 1923 and 1925, 18 koalas were released on Kangaroo Island. Their numbers increased rapidly and in 1997 a population-control program was implemented based on a population estimate of 5000 koalas. During the course of this program, it became clear that the koala population on Kangaroo Island was much greater and more widely distributed than previously thought, hence a more comprehensive population survey was carried out.

In 2000–01 the koala population size was calculated using a stratified sampling approach based on five 'catchment units' and three habitat classifications that were known to support koalas. The koala population was estimated to be ~27 000 koalas in 2001. There were substantial differences in koala density in the low-, medium- and high-quality habitat within each catchment unit, and therefore large differences in the spatial distribution of koalas across Kangaroo Island. This revised population estimate has substantial ramifications for the Kangaroo Island Koala Management Program that was set in place in 1997.


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